"Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

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Vitnir
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by Vitnir » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 15:27

MBY wrote:
Tue 09 Nov 2021, 10:16
Ja, det är något som förvisso är självklart för medkännande skeptiker, men som ändå kanske inte alla har klart för sig: även psykosomatiska besvär och ren inbillan utgör verkliga obehag. Samma med elallergiker o.dyl. Lidandet är riktigt. Det är förklaringsmodellen som är fel.

Nu har jag förvisso inte följt "havannasyndromet" på ett tag, så jag kan inte säga om det är inbillningssjuka eller någon verklig extern omständighet bakom men det verkar som de flesta medierna är rätt återhållsamma och ger intrycket av att det faktiskt är ESS, dvs "inbillan". Kan ju vara någon kombo förstås. Något jävulskap som lätt leder till epidemier av ESS. Självklart kan en antagonist försöka utnyttja människors förmåga till somatisering.
Jag brukar läsa Dagens Nyheter och har helt missat "Havannasyndromet" där. När jag söker på deras webbsida får jag två träffar på artiklar, det länkas där till två andra artiklar under de senaste tre åren. Artiklarna verkar vara ganska objektiva vad jag kan se. Så det verkar inte ha fått något stort genomslag i den typen av gammelmedia.
There is no spoon.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 19:45

Eight SVT articles about the 'syndrome': https://forum.vof.se/viewtopic.php?p=744734#p744734

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 19:58

A Danish skeptic made me aware of this issue of Skeptic Magazine a few minutes ago:
Here’s what you’ll find in Skeptic Magazine 26.4 (2021): Havana Syndrome Hysteria and the Great Wild Goose Chase • Stupid Videos and Marketing Ploys • Environmental Conspiracies: Why do conspiracy theorists believe natural events are intentionally manipulated? • “You Can’t Say That!” Corporate Policing of Language • Excerpt from The Conjurer’s Conundrum: My Life in Magic & Skepticism • Vexed by the Un-Vaxxed • Misunderstanding Vaccines • Why Would God Create the Universe? • Distorting Darwinism • Electrohypersensitivity as a New Psychological Disorder • Reviews of Hawking Hawking: The Selling of a Scientific Celebrity; Mysteries and Secrets Revealed; The Conjurer’s Conundrum; The Century of Deception • Special Investigation: Penguin Paradox — Serious Skeptical Lessons from an Apparently Silly Story
VOL. 26 NO. 4 HAVANA SYNDROME HYSTERIA (Skeptic, Nov 4, 2021)
https://shop.skeptic.com/skeptic-magazine-vol-26-no-4-havana-syndrome-hysteria
I have just Kindle'd it from the U.S. version of Amazon, but it does not seem to be available from the Swedish version of Amazon.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Thu 16 Dec 2021, 12:20

Unanswered questions loom over Biden administration push to strengthen ‘Havana Syndrome’ response (Washington Post, Dec 15, 2021)
... the evolving effort to deal with the episodes, which have spanned the globe and generated fears of stealth foreign attacks, is complicated by officials’ inability to establish a clear diagnosis for a spate of symptoms that while sometimes debilitating are also common, and to identify who or what is causing them.
Officials have detected no patterns among apparent victims in their effort to better understand and attribute the incidents, despite an extensive, ongoing investigation by the government, which includes the CIA and other agencies, according to officials. And, deepening the mystery, most of those who do report symptoms — labeled anomalous health incidents (AHI) by the government — turn out to have some other identifiable condition.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/havana-syndrome-investigation-compensation/2021/12/14/6933bfb2-5846-11ec-a219-9b4ae96da3b7_story.html
Yes, it is very hard to come up with a coherent diagnosis when the one that makes sense is frowned upon and may cost you your job as a medical investigator.
“In a significant majority of cases where individuals have come forward with symptoms, they can be attributed to some particular illness or condition, or they’re reporting out of an abundance of caution and the symptoms do not meet AHI criteria,” said a person familiar with the matter, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive topic.
(...)
Officials are also seeking to better educate medical staffers at missions worldwide, instructing them to be receptive to potential victims’ experiences — and they stress that skepticism is no longer the norm.
(...)
The new law references “qualifying injuries to the brain,” even though administration experts say they do not currently have proof that the mysterious ailments are brain injuries.
“That’s one of the big challenges we have,” a State Department official said. “There’s no one test where you say, ‘Aha! This is an AHI. I can see this on a scan.’
That really needed to be be made clear!

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Wed 12 Jan 2022, 23:53

I hadn't noticed this show from SVT till now:
UTRIKESBYRÅN: HAVANNASYNDROMET (Nov 9, 2021 - 29 min.)
Illamående, yrsel, starka ljud och olika smärttillstånd. Det började på USA:s ambassad i Havanna, Kuba, hösten 2016, sjukdomssymptom som under snart fem år drabbat över 200 amerikanska spioner och diplomater runt om i världen. USA:s regering försöker med hjälp av forskare och underrättelseagenter reda ut vad som orsakar symptomen och vem som kan tänkas ligga bakom. Är det krigshandlingar, hemlig övervakningsteknik eller kanske bara syrsor? I studion: SVT:s USA-korrespondent Stefan Åsberg, hjärnforskaren och författaren Katarina Gospic och Oscar Jonsson, doktor i modern krigföring. Programledare: Rebecca Randhawa. Del 10 av 15.
KAN SES TILL: Mån 9 maj
https://www.svtplay.se/video/33149466/utrikesbyran/utrikesbyran-sasong-4-havannasyndromet?id=j3vQ4nP
The Swedish brain researcher Kararina Gospic is the least naîve of the three Swedish experts, and she has actually considered why some the alleged weapons behind the alleged attacks are very unlikely. The two guys are pretty gullible and both buy into the idea of directed microwave energy weapons.
It is good to see the short clip (at 13:05) with neurologist Robert Baloh, whose article I recently translated into Danish:
Havana-syndromet svarer til mønstret for massepsykogen lidelse – men det betyder ikke, at symptomerne ikke er virkelige
https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=10746
I hope that Katarina Gospic will read up on mass psychogenic illness. Her reason for dismissing it as an explanation is that she thinks that the minds of secret agents and diplomats are somehow impervious to mass hysteria or mass psychogenic illness, but there is no real reason to think so. (And the 'Havana Syndrome' has made it obvious that, given the right circumstances, they may be as vulnerable to mass psychogenic illness as teenage schoolgirls.)

If you prefer a shorter version than the 29 minutes from Utrikesbyrån, there is a one-minute version here:
Från agenter till syrsor – så har förklaringarna till Havannasyndromet sett ut (SVT, Nov 9, 2021)
Det började på Kuba för fem år sedan när två anställda vid den amerikanska ambassaden plötsligt insjuknade. Sedan dess har hundratals diplomater drabbats av det som kommit att kallas Havannasyndromet. Men vad ligger egentligen bakom?
Illamående, yrsel och ett högt metalliskt ljud är några av de vanligaste symtomen. Till en början trodde många att den kubanska säkerhetstjänsten låg bakom men i takt med att fallen spreds över världen har teorierna gått isär. Allt från mikrovågsvapen till masshysteri - frågorna hopar sig samtidigt som allt fler drabbas.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/utrikesbyran-havannasyndromet-vad-ligger-bakom

Tokig tant
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by Tokig tant » Thu 13 Jan 2022, 19:14

dann wrote:
Wed 12 Jan 2022, 23:53

I hope that Katarina Gospic will read up on mass psychogenic illness. Her reason for dismissing it as an explanation is that she thinks that the minds of secret agents and diplomats are somehow impervious to mass hysteria or mass psychogenic illness, but there is no real reason to think so. (And the 'Havana Syndrome' has made it obvious that, given the right circumstances, they may be as vulnerable to mass psychogenic illness as teenage schoolgirls.)
Vad gäller för tonåriga skolgossar då?

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Thu 13 Jan 2022, 20:26

Teenage boys also aren't impervious to mass hysteria or mass psychogenic illness.
However, you hear the argument over and over that the 'Havana Syndrome' can't be mass psychogenic illness because the victims are trained diplomats and CIA agents. Katarina Gospic is not the first one to come up with this objection. It followed immediately when I started the thread about the 'Havana Syndrome' at the ISF in 2017: "Mass hysteria among trained diplomats is unlikely."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11997896#post11997896

It is much easier to accept for both experts and the media when it happens to teenage schoolgirls as in the cases of the resignation syndrome in Sweden, the HPV-vaccine scare in Denmark (and Colombia) and the seizures at Le Roy High School in New York.

The author of the book The Sleeping Beauties and Other Stories of Mystery Illness (2021), the neurologist Suzanne O'Sullivan, investigates all these cases and also the 'Havana Syndrome'. On page 181, she warns that
It is simply incorrect to portray these disorders as being exclusively female territory.
But she adds:
However, it is still true to say that these conditions affect more women than men. That's not only the case with mass outbreaks; in the general population, at least two thirds of people with functional neurological disorders are women.

This is about one of the widespread contemporary mass psychogenic illnesses, EHS:
In 2021, physicist Sébastien Point draws attention to the fact that the prevalence of electrohypersensitivity is similar to the prevalence of specific phobias as well as the gender ratio (2 electrohypersensitive or phobic female for one electrohypersensitive or phobic man), what, according to him, reinforces the hypothesis that electrohypersensitivity is a new specific phobia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity#Prevalence
A case that seems to have affected men exclusively:
San Diego (1988) — The U.S. Navy evacuated 600 men from barracks; 119 were sent to San Diego hospitals with complaints of breathing difficulty. No evidence of toxins, food poisoning, or any other cause was found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases#1950%E2%88%922000

There is also koro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro_(medicine)

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Fri 14 Jan 2022, 11:31

Switzerland and France have been added to the countries where U.S. spies and diplomats have come down with 'Havana Syndrome':
'Havana syndrome': US baffled after new cases in Europe (BBC, Jan 13, 2022)
Four more US diplomats working in Geneva and Paris have fallen ill with a suspected neurological illness known as "Havana syndrome", US media report.
Three diplomats became sick in the Swiss city and one in the French capital last summer, with some 200 people affected over five years.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59986297
Secretary Antony J. Blinken with Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinksi, and Willie Geist of Morning Joe on MSNBC (MSNBC, Jan 13, 2022)
QUESTION: So given the lack of answers as we’re searching for where this is coming from, does the United States validate that this is some sort of attack on our diplomats?

SECRETARY BLINKEN: There is no doubt in my mind that people have been directly and powerfully affected. I’ve talked to them. I’ve listened to them. I’ve heard them. I’ve seen them. But we’ve got to get to the bottom of exactly what happened and who might be responsible, and that’s what we’re determined to do. And as I said, we’ve got virtually the entire government working on this at the President’s instructions. We’re not there yet, but we will get there. We will figure this out. Meanwhile, we have to do what we can to protect people and, as I said, care for them.
https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-with-joe-scarborough-mika-brzezinksi-and-willie-geist-of-morning-joe-on-msnbc/

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 17:00

Who or What is behind Havana Syndrome? | Inside Story (AlJazeera on YouTube, Jan 14, 2022 - 25:00 min.)
More than five years on, and the so-called Havana Syndrome is back with us.
Four American diplomats have fallen sick this week with suspected cases of the Syndrome in Paris and Geneva.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says the federal government is working to identify the illness and who or what might be behind it.
The mystery condition has affected about 200 diplomats and their family members since 2016.
Symptoms include migraines, nausea, memory lapses and dizziness
On Inside Story, an in-depth discussion on the causes of this syndrome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdPDbbemoVg
My comments: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13705299#post13705299

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 21:51

Google and YouTube do their utmost to make sure that Cuban YouTube videos (except for music videos) are hard to find. That is probably the reason why I didn't discover this video till today - very far down on the YouTube list when I searched for "Havana Syndrome". It never appeared when I used the same search term on Google!
The video is a short (9:37 min.) interview in English with Dr. Mitchell Valdés-Sosa, director general of the Cuban Neuroscience Center and head of the Cuban Committee of Experts investigating the 'Havana Syndrome':
No evidence Havana Syndrome (Radio Habana Cuba, Oct 8, 2021 - 9:37 min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYyRCm7x34c

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Fri 21 Jan 2022, 13:49

For the past six months or so, the CIA has been adamant that hundreds of American spies and diplomats all over the world were the victims of directed microwave energy attacks by one or more hostile foreign powers, usually Russia. So it is surprising that the CIA itself now declares that the alleged attacks probably never happened:
Most ‘Havana Syndrome’ Cases Unlikely Caused by Foreign Power, C.I.A. Says (NYT, Jan 20, 2022)
The C.I.A. has found that most cases of the mysterious ailments known as Havana syndrome are unlikely to have been caused by Russia or another foreign adversary, agency officials said, a conclusion that angered victims.
A majority of the 1,000 cases reported to the government can be explained by environmental causes, undiagnosed medical conditions or stress, rather than a sustained global campaign by a foreign power, C.I.A. officials said, describing the interim findings of a comprehensive study.
(...)
The idea that Russia, China or Cuba was responsible for attacking hundreds of diplomats around the world was never backed up by any evidence that the Biden administration could unearth. But the F.B.I., the Pentagon and others continue to investigate whether a foreign power was involved in a smaller number of incidents, the U.S. official said.
(...)
In a statement, a group of victims said the C.I.A. interim findings “cannot and must not be the final word on the matter.” The release of the findings, the victims said, was a breach of faith.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/us/politics/havana-syndrome-cia-report.html
The victims of the alleged attacks even managed to get the former leader of the investigation into the 'Havana Syndrome' fired because she wouldn't rule out that they might be victims of mass psychogenic illness, and they are very offended by the new report.
CIA finds no ‘worldwide campaign’ by any foreign power behind mysterious Havana syndrome (Washington Post, Jan 20, 2022)
“We assess it is unlikely that a foreign actor, including Russia, is conducting a sustained, worldwide campaign harming U.S. personnel with a weapon or mechanism,” said a senior CIA official, speaking on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the agency.
That leaves open the possibility that a foreign power could be responsible for cases that cannot be attributed to medical conditions or other factors, the official said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/cia-havana-syndrome-investigation-russia/2022/01/20/2f86d89e-795c-11ec-bf97-6eac6f77fba2_story.html
Yes, that does indeed leave open the possibility that a foreign power has used ray guns to shoot U.S. diplomats - much the same way that unexplained aerial phenomena leave open the possibility that UFOs are flying saucers from Tralfamadore.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Tue 25 Jan 2022, 20:39

Cuba strikes back!
The truth should not fall on deaf ears (Granma.cu, Nov 24, 2022)
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has now recognized that "mysterious headaches and nausea” among U.S. diplomatic personnel, manipulatively described as the Havana syndrome, were not the result of an operation organized by foreign agents. This is no revelation, but rather very much a confirmation of the Cuban saying that lies have short legs, a truism for the agency.
The prefabricated "syndrome," is nothing more than a big fat lie to justify more hatred, more sanctions, no diplomatic relations, and other etcetera of the anti-Cuba rampage.
https://en.granma.cu/mundo/2022-01-24/the-truth-should-not-fall-on-deaf-ears
I think that the "deaf ears" is a pun on the alleged damaged hearing of some of the first 'syndrome' sufferers in Havana. :smile2:

Skeptic Robert Bartholomew wrote this a few days ago:
CIA Skeptical of ‘Havana Syndrome’ - Report casts doubt on mysterious ‘microwave attacks.’ (Psychology Today, Jan 20, 2022)
* New report links anxiety, mass suggestion and normal medical conditions to 'Havana Syndrome.'
* Five years on and there is still no evidence that a foreign power has been attacking U.S. officials with a microwave weapon
* Victims of mass psychogenic illness are experiencing real symptoms. It is not just "all in their heads."
(...)
While the CIA said it is continuing to investigate about two dozen cases that are unexplained, that should not be taken to suggest that there is some sinister plot against American diplomats and intelligence officers. A relevant parallel is UFO reports. A recent US Government report on UFOs found that many cases were unexplained, but that did not necessarily mean that they were of extraterrestrial origin. For instance, many cases lack sufficient information on which to base an assessment. The same is true of ‘Havana Syndrome.’
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/its-catching/202201/cia-skeptical-havana-syndrome

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