Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

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manifesto
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Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » sön 13 jun 2021, 14:53

Vad tror ni? Är ursprunget naturligt eller har viruset sitt ursprung i ett labb?
War is peace.

dann
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » mån 14 jun 2021, 15:36

Well, it's nok like in Blade Runner where the scales of artificial snakes come with serial numbers: 9906947XB71 :smile2:

I doubt that there is a big difference between a virus that infects somebody who buys and eats a bat from a market in Wuhan and a virus that infects a researcher dissecting a bat in a lab in the same region.

Series of studies point towards natural coronavirus spillover event, scientists suggest (The Telegraph, June 12, 2021)

A l-o-n-g thread (29 pages x 25 posts) discussing Origins of Covid (International Skeptics Forum, Feb. 21, 2021 --> present)

manifesto
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » mån 14 jun 2021, 18:16

dann skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 15:36
Spoiler: Visa
Well, it's nok like in Blade Runner where the scales of artificial snakes come with serial numbers: 9906947XB71 :smile2:
I doubt that there is a big difference between a virus that infects somebody who buys and eats a bat from a market in Wuhan and a virus that infects a researcher dissecting a bat in a lab in the same region.
Frågan är primärt om viruset har tagits fram av människan i ett labb, eller om det har uppstått i det naturliga urvalet.

Vad tror du?

Series of studies point towards natural coronavirus spillover event, scientists suggest (The Telegraph, June 12, 2021)

A l-o-n-g thread (29 pages x 25 posts) discussing Origins of Covid (International Skeptics Forum, Feb. 21, 2021 --> present)
Citera och förklara vad som finns bakom dina länkar.

Argument för:

1. Naturligt urval?

2. Mänskligt urval?
War is peace.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » mån 14 jun 2021, 20:30

manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 18:16
Frågan är primärt om viruset har tagits fram av människan i ett labb, eller om det har uppstått i det naturliga urvalet.

Vad tror du?
I have no favorites. People might infect themselves by accident in a lab, or the virus might have jumped from species to species at a wet market or when people were havesting bat guano in a cave. There would be no virus 'signature' to indicate where and how.
Series of studies point towards natural coronavirus spillover event, scientists suggest (The Telegraph, June 12, 2021)

A l-o-n-g thread (29 pages x 25 posts) discussing Origins of Covid (International Skeptics Forum, Feb. 21, 2021 --> present)
Citera och förklara vad som finns bakom dina länkar.
Argument för:
1. Naturligt urval?
2. Mänskligt urval?
The title of the article in the Telegraph gives it away. (Very refreshing in these times of titillating click-bait titles!)
You will have to read the arguments in the article for yourself. One study isn't even particularly recent, but it was delayed in the process of getting approved for publication.

manifesto
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » mån 14 jun 2021, 21:35

dann skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 20:30
manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 18:16
Frågan är primärt om viruset har tagits fram av människan i ett labb, eller om det har uppstått i det naturliga urvalet.

Vad tror du?
I have no favorites. People might infect themselves by accident in a lab, or the virus might have jumped from species to species at a wet market or when people were havesting bat guano in a cave. There would be no virus 'signature' to indicate where and how.
Utesluter du här medvetet alternativet att viruset togs fram i, låt säga gain-of-function-experiment?


Series of studies point towards natural coronavirus spillover event, scientists suggest (The Telegraph, June 12, 2021)

A l-o-n-g thread (29 pages x 25 posts) discussing Origins of Covid (International Skeptics Forum, Feb. 21, 2021 --> present)
Citera och förklara vad som finns bakom dina länkar.
Argument för:
1. Naturligt urval?
2. Mänskligt urval?
The title of the article in the Telegraph gives it away. (Very refreshing in these times of titillating click-bait titles!)
You will have to read the arguments in the article for yourself. One study isn't even particularly recent, but it was delayed in the process of getting approved for publication.
Yes, I have read the article, but I ask YOU why YOU find it compelling.
War is peace.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » mån 14 jun 2021, 22:18

manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 21:35
Utesluter du här medvetet alternativet att viruset togs fram i, låt säga gain-of-function-experiment?
No.
manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 21:35
Yes, I have read the article, but I ask YOU why YOU find it compelling.
WHO told YOU that I found it compelling?

manifesto
Inlägg: 11241
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » mån 14 jun 2021, 23:23

dann skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 22:18
manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 21:35
Utesluter du här medvetet alternativet att viruset togs fram i, låt säga gain-of-function-experiment?
No.
Så, varför utelämnade du det alternativet?

manifesto skrev:
mån 14 jun 2021, 21:35
Yes, I have read the article, but I ask YOU why YOU find it compelling.
WHO told YOU that I found it compelling?
I assumed that you were posting sources supporting your point of view.

You didn't?
War is peace.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » tis 15 jun 2021, 05:51

You assume a lot.

I was posting the most recent article I stumbled on, which I found interesting because it referred to research and wasn't mere speculation. Most recent articles have been along the lines of, 'We can't rule out that the virus came from a lab, and since we haven't found the smoking gun in the purely zoonotic explanation (bats? what kind of bats? pangolins?), we demand answers from China.' - which to me sounds too much like when Creationist claim that evolutions hasn't been proved whenever the missing link hasn't been found ... yet.
So ... lab of the gap instead of God of the gaps.

Unfortunately, the idea that the virus might have escaped from a lab was made unlikely by the entirely unfounded speculations that it was an escaped bio weapon, an idea that was dismissed by researchers very early on.
For a timeline of theories and speculations, see the article Timeline: How the Wuhan lab-leak theory suddenly became credible (WP, May 25, 2021)

As I have mentioned before, I find it unlikely that there would be much difference between a zoonotic virus escaping from a lab and one escaping from a wet market. The only difference that I find likely is that a virus would have had more chances of making several fast species crossovers at a wet market before it got to humans, which might accelerate the mutations, kind of like what happened when it went back and forth between humans and mink ... and in some places probably still does.

But this is mere speculation while I am waiting for more research to appear.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » tis 15 jun 2021, 09:04

Spoiler alert: Comedy!
Jon Stewart On Vaccine Science And The Wuhan Lab Theory (The Late Show with Stephen Colbert on YouTube, June 15, 2021)
"They Are Going To Kill Us All" - Jon Stewart Declares His Love For Scientists (The Late Show with Stephen Colbert on YouTube, June 15, 2021)
Spoiler alert: Not comedy!
DESPERATE Lindsey Graham Freaks Over Lab Leak (The Damage Report on YouTube, June 13, 2021)

manifesto
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » tis 15 jun 2021, 19:55

dann skrev:
tis 15 jun 2021, 05:51
You assume a lot.
Gör jag? Jag frågar forumet om ni (forumiter) tror att viruset är tillverkat av människan i ett labb eller tillverkat av det naturliga urvalet i naturen.

Du svarar med att posta en länk till en artikel som säger att viruset troligen tillverkades av det naturliga urvalet i naturen.

Är det då orimligt att anta att du tror att viruset är tillverkat av det naturliga urvalet i naturen?

I was posting the most recent article I stumbled on, which I found interesting because it referred to research and wasn't mere speculation. Most recent articles have been along the lines of, 'We can't rule out that the virus came from a lab, and since we haven't found the smoking gun in the purely zoonotic explanation (bats? what kind of bats? pangolins?), we demand answers from China.' - which to me sounds too much like when Creationist claim that evolutions hasn't been proved whenever the missing link hasn't been found ... yet.
So ... lab of the gap instead of God of the gaps.
SARS1 and MERS was tracked down 4 and 9 months after the breakout. From its origins in bats via its intermediary hosts to humans, including up to nearly 20 steps in its intermediary forms before its adaptations to humans made it a highly contagious human pathogen.

Here we are, more than 18 months later and nothing has been found that says Covid-19 has a natural origin.

Am I a "Creationist" if I say that those who propagate the theory of natural origin has the burden of proof until Chinese authorities lift their seal on the research material in the Wuhan Institute of Virology and other labs in the relevant region?

Have you studied the evidence for the opposite, that the virus is a human construct 'leaked' from a lab in Wuhan?


Unfortunately, the idea that the virus might have escaped from a lab was made unlikely by the entirely unfounded speculations that it was an escaped bio weapon, an idea that was dismissed by researchers very early on.
I agree that the "bio weapon thesis" has obfuscated the public debate on lab vs nature, yes.

That said, the theory is far from crazy, given that gain-of-function is a double edged sword. The US 2001 antrax attacks is a good example of that: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56569.htm

For a timeline of theories and speculations, see the article Timeline: How the Wuhan lab-leak theory suddenly became credible (WP, May 25, 2021)

As I have mentioned before, I find it unlikely that there would be much difference between a zoonotic virus escaping from a lab and one escaping from a wet market.
So, how do you explain the furin cleavage site? With its human preferred arginine codons (PRRA)?

Mutations + natural selection?

Recombinations + natural selection?


The only difference that I find likely is that a virus would have had more chances of making several fast species crossovers at a wet market before it got to humans, which might accelerate the mutations, kind of like what happened when it went back and forth between humans and mink ... and in some places probably still does.
So, where is the intermediary hosts?

But this is mere speculation while I am waiting for more research to appear.
No intermedediary hosts + no intermediary forms of the virus + a fully adapted human patogen from the get go = facts.

Not speculation.

ALL the evidence so far points to a origin in a Wuhan lab = gain-of-function.

NONE of the evidence so far points to a natural origin = natural selection.

Am I wrong?
War is peace.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » tis 15 jun 2021, 22:09

manifesto skrev:
tis 15 jun 2021, 19:55
That said, the theory is far from crazy, given that gain-of-function is a double edged sword. The US 2001 antrax attacks is a good example of that: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56569.htm
I may start taking your ideas seriously if you come up with more reliable sources.
Information Clearing House
Conspiracy Level: Strong
Pseudo-Sci Level: Moderate
Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence. These sources may be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information, therefore fact checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources
Overall, we rate Information Clearing House a Left Biased, Conspiracy, and Pseudoscience source. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting as a lot of content is factual in between the Conspiracy stories
(Media Bias / Fact Check )
I notice that Information Clearing House not only distributes articles like this one, The Coronavirus Hoax, Tom Feeley, its owner, now seems to suffer from long Covid.

One of my friends, who used to be left-wing, went down the same (or maybe just a very similar) rabbit hole a few years ago.

For those of you who are interested in learning about gain of function: Why Scientists Tweak Lab Viruses to Make Them More Contagious (Scientific American, June 14, 2021)
Senast redigerad av 1 dann, redigerad totalt 0 gånger.

Nemesis
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av Nemesis » tis 15 jun 2021, 22:13

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

manifesto
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » tis 15 jun 2021, 22:47

dann skrev:
tis 15 jun 2021, 22:09
manifesto skrev:
tis 15 jun 2021, 19:55
That said, the theory is far from crazy, given that gain-of-function is a double edged sword. The US 2001 antrax attacks is a good example of that: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56569.htm
I may start taking your ideas seriously if you come up with more reliable sources.
Are you disputing the fact that the anthrax used in the terror attacks was taken from an American government lab where they weaponized it behind the pretense of gain-of-function research in order to make vaccin?

Information Clearing House
Conspiracy Level: Strong
Who in Information Clearing House are conspiring to do what?

Pseudo-Sci Level: Moderate
Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence. These sources may be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information, therefore fact checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources
So, did you "fact check" Greenwald's article or are you just trying to smear my sources without even trying to refute them with specific counter facts?

Overall, we rate Information Clearing House a Left Biased
According to whom and why and if so, are there any un-biased outlets you can recommend?

AI?

Conspiracy
Again, who are conspiring to do what?

and Pseudoscience source.
According to whom? And again, are there anything in the article that is stated without credible sources?

We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting as a lot of content is factual in between the Conspiracy stories
(Media Bias / Fact Check )
I notice that Information Clearing House not only distributes articles like this one, The Coronavirus Hoax, Tom Feeley, its owner, now seems to suffer from long Covid.
Who is "Media Bias / Fact Check"?

Have you "fact checked" them and/or their "bias"?

One of my friends, who used to be left-wing, went down the same (or maybe just a very similar) rabbit hole a few years ago.
What on earth are you talking about?

For those of you who are interested in learning about gain of function: Why Scientists Tweak Lab Viruses to Make Them More Contagious (Scientific American, June 14, 2021)
"Scientific American" (lol).

Again. There is:

1. ZERO evidence for natural origin + natural selection.

2. ALL available evidence says lab origin + gain-of-function (in Wuhan Institute of Virology).

Am I wrong?
Senast redigerad av 2 manifesto, redigerad totalt 0 gång.
War is peace.

manifesto
Inlägg: 11241
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Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av manifesto » tis 15 jun 2021, 22:51

Nemesis skrev:
tis 15 jun 2021, 22:13
Från Science-Based Medicine:

- The Origins of SARS-CoV-2

- The origin of SARS-CoV-2, revisited
Are you "stumbling" over random articles again and having this unstoppable urge just to post them no matter what their content?

Or could you actually explain WHY you posted them?
War is peace.

dann
Inlägg: 1522
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Covid-19. Naturligt eller labb?

Inlägg av dann » ons 16 jun 2021, 05:14

Calm down and stop confusing me with Nemesis.
There aren't that many people in the thread.
Nemesis didn't mention stumbling on anything.
I did.

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