Vaccin mot Covid-19

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Nemesis
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Mon 15 Aug 2022, 20:06

manifesto wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 14:26
Nemesis wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 10:44
manifesto wrote:
Wed 10 Aug 2022, 06:19


Är apnews.com en bättre källa, menar du?

https://forum.vof.se/viewtopic.php?p=748964#p748964
Än WSJ? Absolut!
Varför då?
Är detta en seriös fråga?
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

manifesto
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by manifesto » Tue 16 Aug 2022, 12:10

Nemesis wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 20:06
manifesto wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 14:26
Nemesis wrote:
Mon 15 Aug 2022, 10:44


Än WSJ? Absolut!
Varför då?
Är detta en seriös fråga?
Ja.

Det är även det här:
  • Igen:

    Hur kan det komma sig att du vill vaccinera även barn under 5 år inom ramarna för "EUA"? Varför "EUA" om FDA faktiskt vet att riskerna väger lättare än fördelarna?
Du insisterar på att inte svara på den här frågan?
War is peace.

Nemesis
Posts:3506
Joined:Thu 12 Oct 2006, 22:04
Location:Stockholm

Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Wed 17 Aug 2022, 20:30

Dagens bloggpost från Science-Based Medicine. Det finns en del användare på detta forum som det skulle vara mycket intressant att höra svaret från.
The Alternative to Vaccinating Children Isn’t Just “Not Vaccinating” Them

It’s putting them on an inevitable collision course with the virus—without any protection from the vaccine.

...

At what age do they feel people should get vaccinated?

Since they trash the vaccine for babies and toddlers, perhaps they think vaccination should start at age 5. I’ve not heard them say this, and they’ve written misleading articles about vaccinating children this age. Moreover, starting vaccination at age 5 makes no sense, as these children have the lowest risk of severe outcomes of any children.

Perhaps then they think that vaccination should start in adolescence. I’ve not heard them say this, and they’ve written misleading articles about vaccinating children this age as well. Moreover, starting vaccination in adolescence makes no sense, as these children are most vulnerable to vaccine-myocarditis, which they’ve treated as a fate worse than death from COVID. Since the vaccine-myocarditis risk drops after 25, maybe this is the age when contrarian doctors feel vaccination should finally start.

No one knows what these doctors think, and I doubt they do either. They’ve seemingly given no consideration to how old they feel a child should be before they deserve protection against COVID.

In contrast, pediatricians who actually care for sick children were thrilled when they could finally vaccinate their youngest patients. These doctors realize the question of what age to vaccinate children is intimately linked with another very important and very obvious question. How long can the average newborn expect to avoid COVID? I don’t know for sure, but my gut tells me “not that long“. I expect only the most isolated children will enter kindergarten never having encountered the virus. None will remain uninfected once they’ve been in school awhile, and most likely, they’ll be exposed to the virus throughout their lives.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/alternative/
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Joined:Sun 24 May 2020, 17:18

Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Thu 18 Aug 2022, 05:24

Denmark has now stopped vaccinating children. From now on, they will have to get used to getting infected once a year with nothing but immunity acquired through previous infections to protect them:
Om vaccination efterår/vinter 2022-23 (Coronasmitte.dk, June 28, 2022)
Børn og unge får kun meget sjældent alvorligt forløb af covid-19 med omikron-varianten, hvorfor tilbud om vaccination med 1. og 2. stik til børn mellem 5 og 17 år fremover ikke vil være et generelt tilbud, men kan gives efter konkret lægelig vurdering.
https://coronasmitte.dk/emner/vaccination
People younger than 50 won't get more than one booster shot unless they are particularly vulnerable:
Sundhedsstyrelsen planlægger foreløbigt med, at personer på 50 år og derover tilbydes booster-vaccination til efteråret.
Der vil fortsat også være et tilbud til helt særlige sårbare under 50 år, fx personer med svært nedsat immunforsvar, som en læge har vurderet vil have gavn af vaccination.
This seems to mean that 18 to 49-year-olds will only be eligible for booster shots if they haven't already had one. A second booster shot, i.e. '4. stik', does not appear to be an option:
Personer over 18 år vil fortsat også have mulighed for at få 3. stik.

dann
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Thu 18 Aug 2022, 18:01

Two new articles about the (lack of) vaccination of Danish children, which I wrote about this morning:
En kommentar fra en dansk mor har kastet coronaeksperter ud i hidsig debat (TV2.dk, Aug 18, 2022)
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-08-16-en-kommentar-fra-en-dansk-mor-har-kastet-coronaeksperter-ud-i-hidsig-debat
Mens nogle lande vaccinerer børn ned til seks måneder har Danmark valgt en helt anden strategi (TV2.dk, Aug 18, 2022)
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-08-17-mens-nogle-lande-vaccinerer-boern-ned-til-seks-maaneder-har-danmark-valgt-en-helt
Notice what Astrid Iversen says in both articles. One of her opponents, Anton Pottegård, argues with Danish exceptionalism:
- Den grundlæggende forståelse af, at vi er i samme situation som andre lande, men gør noget helt andet, holder altså ikke. Vi har en anden situation, et andet udgangspunkt og en anden historik – udover at vi selvfølgelig kigger på de danske tal, siger han til TV 2.
Det lyder på dig som om Danmarks situation er helt unik i forhold til andre lande?
- Det er måske at stramme den, men det er da ikke langt fra, siger Anton Pottegård.
Du fremhæver, at en af grundene til, at vi i Danmark står et godt sted, er krydsimmunitet gennem vaccination og smitte. Men mange børn er ikke blevet vaccineret – der er for eksempel nu en hel årgang, som ikke kan få vaccinen. De har ikke krydsimmunitet og er derfor ikke lige så godt beskyttet som de voksne.
- Men de bliver jo ikke syge. Selv om der er et teoretisk argument for at krydsimmunitet er bedre, så ændrer det ikke på det faktum, at vi ikke har mange alvorligt syge børn.
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-08-17-mens-nogle-lande-vaccinerer-boern-ned-til-seks-maaneder-har-danmark-valgt-en-helt
He could use the same argument against the MMR (mumps, measles, rubella) vaccines. As if only "many seriously ill children" would make it a good idea to vaccinate children. Astrid Iversen points out that e.g. the risk of myocarditis in children and young people is several times higher after infections than after vaccinations:
Det er vacciner, som vi efterhånden har rigtig meget erfaring med, som vi ved er meget sikre, og som har få og sjældne bivirkninger. Risikoen for eksempelvis myocarditis (betændelsestilstand i hjertemusklen, red.) er mange gange større for børn og unge efter smitte end efter vaccination, og alligevel er de praktiserende læger kun blevet bedt om at oplyse om risikoen efter vaccination. I den nuværende situation er det umuligt at undgå at blive smittet på et eller andet tidspunkt. Derfor er det vigtigt, at blandt andet børnene er beskyttet af en vaccine, helst før de bliver smittet. Vi ved, at det mindsker risikoen for alvorlig sygdom og risikoen for senfølger.
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-08-16-en-kommentar-fra-en-dansk-mor-har-kastet-coronaeksperter-ud-i-hidsig-debat

Nemesis
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Thu 18 Aug 2022, 21:22

Man kan ju använda samma argument när det kommer till poliovaccin. Se Wikipedias siffror på hur många som drabbas av allvarliga symtom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio

- No symptoms: 72%
- Minor illness: 24%
- Nonparalytic aseptic meningitis: 1–5%
- Paralytic poliomyelitis: 0.1–0.5%

Vad förvirrade pwm och resten av gänget borde bli nu. De tror ju att du kritiserar den svenska pandemihanteringen enbart för att du är dansk och hejar på Danmark, och drivs av samma nationalism som de själva drivs av. Och så kritiserar du nu Danmarks pandemihantering.

Läste att personer under 50 i Danmark inte kommer att erbjudas en andra boosterdos, stämmer det?

Vad betyder "krydsimmunitet"? Google Translate översätter det till "korsimmunitet". Är det hybridimmunitet som avses?
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 06:44

Nemesis wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 21:22
Läste att personer under 50 i Danmark inte kommer att erbjudas en andra boosterdos, stämmer det?
Yes, see my first post yesterday: https://forum.vof.se/viewtopic.php?p=749318#p749318
They made a preliminary decision about this before the summer holidays, and they may change their minds when the Omicron-specific vaccines become available.
Nemesis wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 21:22
Vad betyder "krydsimmunitet"? Google Translate översätter det till "korsimmunitet". Är det hybridimmunitet som avses?
No. Krydsimmunitet:
Epidemiolog: Ny coronavariant er som en helt ny sygdom (Berlingske.dk, Jan 2. 2022)
En ny og særligt smitsom coronavariant har de seneste uger spredt sig i Danmark, og ifølge Viggo Andreasen, lektor i matematisk epidemiologi ved Roskilde Universitet, bør vi betragte den som en helt ny sygdom, der invaderer landet.
Det tyder på, at der er såkaldt krydsimmunitet ved coronavarianterne. Det vil sige, at har man været smittet med den ene variant, er man også immun over for den anden. Men med omkring 165.000 bekræftede coronatilfælde i Danmark, har for få opnået den immunitet, siger Viggo Andreasen.
https://www.berlingske.dk/danmark/epidemiolog-ny-coronavariant-er-som-en-helt-ny-sygdom
Hybridimmunitet:
Smitte og vaccination giver superimmunitet, siger norsk overlæge (TV2.dk, Dec. 26, 2021)
Personer, der har været smittet enten før eller efter to vaccinestik, kan være bedre stillet i forhold til nye virusvarianter, end hvis man har fået tre vaccinestik uden at have været smittet.
(...)
Eksperterne kalder det hybridimmunitet eller superimmunitet
https://nyheder.tv2.dk/udland/2021-12-26-smitte-og-vaccination-giver-superimmunitet-siger-norsk-overlaege
The Norwegian doctor forgets (or ignores) that, unlike people who "har fået tre vaccinestik uden at have været smittet", "personer, der har været smittet enten før eller efter to vaccinestik" may have died from the infection or suffer from sequelae. So much for "bedre stillet". :banghead:

I get the impression that many of these guys are unable to focus on more than one aspect of this at a time. For instance, they seem to ignore that the immunity, whether from vaccines or infections, wanes. This aspect becomes important when they measure the immunity against Omicron BA.5 acquired through an earlier Omicron infection and then declare that it is much better (or even "super") than immunity acquired through, for instance, an infection with the Delta variant. I don't think that they take into account that an infection with the Delta variant would have happened in mid-2021 whereas a previous Omicron infection would have happened in late-2021/early-2022. After Omicron took over, hardly anybody got infected with Delta.

manifesto
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by manifesto » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 09:48

Nemesis wrote:
Wed 17 Aug 2022, 20:30
Dagens bloggpost från Science-Based Medicine. Det finns en del användare på detta forum som det skulle vara mycket intressant att höra svaret från.
The Alternative to Vaccinating Children Isn’t Just “Not Vaccinating” Them

It’s putting them on an inevitable collision course with the virus—without any protection from the vaccine.

...

At what age do they feel people should get vaccinated?

Since they trash the vaccine for babies and toddlers, perhaps they think vaccination should start at age 5. I’ve not heard them say this, and they’ve written misleading articles about vaccinating children this age. Moreover, starting vaccination at age 5 makes no sense, as these children have the lowest risk of severe outcomes of any children.

Perhaps then they think that vaccination should start in adolescence. I’ve not heard them say this, and they’ve written misleading articles about vaccinating children this age as well. Moreover, starting vaccination in adolescence makes no sense, as these children are most vulnerable to vaccine-myocarditis, which they’ve treated as a fate worse than death from COVID. Since the vaccine-myocarditis risk drops after 25, maybe this is the age when contrarian doctors feel vaccination should finally start.

No one knows what these doctors think, and I doubt they do either. They’ve seemingly given no consideration to how old they feel a child should be before they deserve protection against COVID.

In contrast, pediatricians who actually care for sick children were thrilled when they could finally vaccinate their youngest patients. These doctors realize the question of what age to vaccinate children is intimately linked with another very important and very obvious question. How long can the average newborn expect to avoid COVID? I don’t know for sure, but my gut tells me “not that long“. I expect only the most isolated children will enter kindergarten never having encountered the virus. None will remain uninfected once they’ve been in school awhile, and most likely, they’ll be exposed to the virus throughout their lives.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/alternative/
Varför svarar du inte på min fråga? Igen.

Hur kan det komma sig att du vill vaccinera även barn under 5 år inom ramarna för "EUA"? Varför "EUA" om FDA faktiskt vet att riskerna väger lättare än fördelarna?
War is peace.

Nemesis
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 10:55

Dann, vet du nåt om hur andra danska skeptiker ser på Danmarks beslut att begränsa vaccinationerna på det sätt man gör?
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 13:38

No, I don't know.
Based on their reactions to other issues concerning the pandemic, they seem to rely on their faith in the Danish consensus as it's manifested in pandemic decisions, i.e. when we are not encouraged to forget about face masks and learn to live with the pandemic, and when only the 50+ population can expect to get boosted in October, it must be the rational and evidence-based way to go.
The two articles from TV2.dk yesterday gives me a little hope that the media seems to have discovered that the recent pandemic decisions may not have been as evidence-based as their advocates would like us to believe.

dann
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Wed 24 Aug 2022, 18:16

Cuban Vaccine to be produced in Italy in attempt to solve WHO prequalification hurdle (People's Dispatch, Aug 19, 2022)
Cuba–Italy collaboration on COVID-19 moves forward as memorandum for production of vaccines is signed between Finlay Institute of Vaccines and Italian biotech company
(...)
The Cuban government has been collaborating with other countries to expand production of vaccines. Iran was the first country to begin producing Soberana-2, a conjugate vaccine developed by Finlay Institute of Vaccines (IFV), Havana. This was a much needed collaboration in 2021 as both countries face heavy sanctions by the US and as a result were facing an acute shortage of vaccines.
Italy is the latest to join in that collaboration. A memorandum of understanding was signed between IFV, Italian company ADIENNE Pharma & Biotech and the Italian Agency for Economic and Cultural Exchange with Cuba (AICEC) in April 2022. The Italian company will begin production of Soberana-2 soon in Italy, which will become part of an international health cooperation mechanism and be exported to other countries.
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2022/08/19/cuban-vaccine-to-be-produced-in-italy-in-attempt-to-solve-who-prequalification-hurdle/

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elron
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by elron » Thu 25 Aug 2022, 21:52

En femte spruta vaccin tyx vara på gång åtminstone för skröpliga gamlingar som jag som tillhör en s k riskgrupp, har alltså såväl hemtjänst som hemsjukvård, samt antar jag, för personal inom dessa yrken. I alla fall i Göteborg. Vet dock inte med 100% säkerhet då jag hört detta på omvägar från en släkting, men hon brukar veta vad hon talar om.
Cogito, ergo Cartesius est

dann
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by dann » Fri 26 Aug 2022, 14:41

Your relative does know what she is talkinga about! :smile2:
Vuxna rekommenderas tre doser
För vuxna mellan 18–64 år rekommenderas vaccination med tre doser. I höst kan den som vill ta ytterligare en påfyllnadsdos, dos fyra.
Äldre och de i riskgrupp
De som är 65 år och äldre samt personer i riskgrupp från 18 års ålder rekommenderas en påfyllnadsdos vaccin mot covid-19. Rekommendationen gäller från och med den 1 september 2022.
https://www.krisinformation.se/detta-kan-handa/handelser-och-storningar/20192/myndigheterna-om-det-nya-coronaviruset/vaccin-mot-covid-19/nar-far-jag-vaccineras
Höstdosen rekommenderas till vissa grupper
Risken för att bli allvarligt sjuk i covid-19 är större i vissa grupper. Risken ökar med åldern och skyddet från vaccination sjunker snabbare hos äldre än yngre. Från och med 1 september erbjuds grupperna nedan höstdosen oavsett hur många doser de har fått tidigare:
personer som är 65 år och äldre, samt de som bor på SÄBO för äldre, har hemsjukvård eller hemtjänst
personer från 18 år i riskgrupp.
https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/smittskydd-beredskap/utbrott/aktuella-utbrott/covid-19/vaccination-mot-covid-19/om-vaccinerna-mot-covid-19/pafyllnadsdos/

Nemesis
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Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Fri 26 Aug 2022, 15:59

Det stämmer att 65-plussarna får en femte dos i höst. De fick nämligen en fjärde dos i våras.
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

Nemesis
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Vaccin mot Covid-19

Post by Nemesis » Fri 26 Aug 2022, 19:11

Dagens Science-Based Medicine:
Is it “Natural and Healthy” When Children Get Sick With COVID?

The notion that society and children benefit when they contract vaccine-preventable diseases used to be relegated to the fringes of the anti-vaccine movement. It is now embraced by doctors at prestigious universities.



Pro-virus arguments take two forms: sick children are good for society and sickness benefits individual children. Prior to the pandemic, these ideas were relegated to the fringe of the anti-vaccine movement, though they are now promoted by highly-credentialed doctors at prestigious universities with access to powerful politicians.

The idea that children should get sick to protect vulnerable adult precedes COVID, and is one of the main arguments anti-vaxxers used against the chickenpox vaccine. According to this twisted logic, children with chickenpox provide an “immune boost” to adults, who are then less likely to get shingles. For this reason, it’s good when unvaccinated children contract chickenpox. This is, of course, completely false, and even if it were true, infecting children to protect adults is a moral abomination. Children have the right to be protected against diseases that can harm them.



It’s true that diseases like COVID and chickenpox are more benign for children than adults. In a fantasy world where natural immunity leads to permanent immunity and vaccines didn’t exist, exposing children to these viruses may be defensible. Moreover, no one would suggest that it would be healthy for a child to grow up in a completely sterile environment. However, there’s no evidence that any particular vaccine-preventable disease -not chickenpox, not measles, not HPV, not COVID- is beneficial for children, nor is there evidence that it’s beneficial when children feel sick and rotten.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/healthy/
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

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