Cuba

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dann
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Cuba

Post by dann » Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:16

Two recent posts from the thread Vilka nationella eller regionala åtgärder mot coronavirus är evidensbaserade?:
Tokig tant wrote:
Mon 18 Oct 2021, 17:58
Kubanerna behöver yttrandefrihet, näringsfrihet och föreningsfrihet.
Nemesis wrote:
Tue 19 Oct 2021, 18:30
Jag håller inte alls med Dann om förtjänsterna hos den kubanska regimen. Kuba är utan tvekan en auktoritär stat och det vore önskvärt om landet blev en liberal demokrati istället.
Instead of derailing that thread, I have made this new thread for a discussion about Cuba in general and about Cuba's pandemic strategy in as far as it touches upon Cuba's system of government.

I am not getting my hopes up since I have tried this before when posters in the thread about evidence for pandemic measures tried to derail it, and it turned out that they were not even remotely interested in the question - or at least, not enough to participate in the thread I created specifically for that purpose.

You can find my answers to the two posters quoted above here and here. If you have comments to those posts, please answer in this thread, not in the coronavirus thread, unless your answer is related to the pandemic.
I recommend taking a look at the sources before posting them as a references: Freedom House: Criticism

Nemesis
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Re: Cuba

Post by Nemesis » Wed 20 Oct 2021, 18:45

Får se om moderatorerna accepterar denna tråd, då rent politiska diskussioner inte är tillåtna. Om det hålls inom ramen för en rent statsvetenskaplig diskussion om huruvida Kuba är en demokrati eller inte så borde det vara okej. Vi får se.

Vad är din egen uppfattning om vilket politiskt system Kuba har?

Jag hänvisade inte bara till Freedom House, utan även till Democracy Index.

Här kan du också läsa om vad Amnesty och Human Rights Watch har att säga om Kuba:

Amnesty:
Amid reports of food scarcity, the authorities continued to repress all forms of dissent, including by imprisoning independent artists, journalists and members of the political opposition.
Repression of dissent
Authorities continued to clamp down on all forms of dissent, imprisoning political leaders, independent journalists and artists.

In April, the authorities released José Daniel Ferrer García, leader of the unofficial political opposition group Patriotic Union of Cuba (UNPACU) and former prisoner of conscience, who had been imprisoned in October 2019 and tried on 26 February in a trial tainted by irregularities. The Cuban authorities had prevented the press, the EU and Amnesty International from monitoring his trial.
Freedom of expression
Reports of independent journalists fined for reporting on COVID-19 and its impact on the country prompted calls for President Miguel Díaz-Canel to take immediate measures to guarantee press freedom.2 Civil society and journalists also expressed concern during the year that Decree-Law 370, a law related to online expression, appeared to tighten the Cuban government’s network of control and censorship online, especially during the pandemic.

In March, Cubanet journalist Camila Acosta was arrested for hours and given a fine for sharing information on Facebook. In September, she was arrested again and threatened with further prosecution for protesting Decree 370. On 4 September, the authorities released independent journalist with Cubanet, Roberto Quiñones Haces, aged 63. He had been tried in 2019 and sentenced to one year’s imprisonment for “resistance” and “disobedience” because of his work as a journalist. Amnesty international, Article 19, the Institute for War and Peace Reporting and the Committee to Protect Journalists called consistently for his release, especially in the context of his heighted risk from COVID-19 as a person with underlying medical conditions and over the age of 60. Roberto Quiñones had published articles about his prison conditions, including overcrowding, poor food and water quality, and lack of adequate medical care.

Throughout the year, authorities harassed and intimidated members of the San Isidro Movement – composed of artists, poets, LGBTI activists, academics and independent journalists. Its members were at the forefront of challenging Decree 349 that stands to censor artists. The authorities’ actions symbolized Cuba’s ongoing repression of the right to freedom of expression in the country.
Human Rights Watch:
The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and deter public criticism. It routinely relies on arbitrary detention to harass and intimidate critics, independent activists, protesters, and others. Other repressive tactics employed by the government include public acts of shaming and the arbitrary termination of employment. The US embargo continues to provide the Cuban government with an excuse for its problems, a pretext for its abuses, and a way to garner sympathy abroad with governments that might otherwise have been willing to condemn the country’s repressive practices more vocally.
Att dessa organisationer skulle gå i USA:s ledband blir svårt att hävda, då de även kritiserar USA och länder som är allierade med USA.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Thu 21 Oct 2021, 19:34

Just to tell you that I've seen your post and will get back to it. As far as Cuba is concerned, I am very busy right now trying to keep up with the 'syndrome'. I am surprised that Swedish skeptics don't appear to be interested in that. As a debate topic, it has everything that should appeal to skeptics: pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, the nocebo effect, sci-fi technology, CIA agents and incredibly stupid politicians.

Nemesis
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Re: Cuba

Post by Nemesis » Fri 22 Oct 2021, 20:45

No stress. :smile2:
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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pwm
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Re: Cuba

Post by pwm » Mon 01 Nov 2021, 15:20

Nemesis wrote:
Fri 22 Oct 2021, 20:45
No stress. :smile2:
Dann förefaller vara upptagen med att besvara sina egna inlägg.

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pwm
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Re: Cuba

Post by pwm » Mon 08 Nov 2021, 21:58

Det här kan arta sig till en ny Marina Szöges-tråd

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Mon 15 Nov 2021, 13:19

For somebody who loves to document that he has placed me on ignore, pwm is peculiarly preoccupied with what I'm posting, and yet both he and Tokig tant seem to be incapable of grasping that this is the thread for discussions about all things Cuban when they have nothing to do with Cuba's pandemic response. They also prefer to ignore that I already mentioned that translations of articles about Cuba required a lot of my time, but that I would get back to this thread at some point: https://forum.vof.se/viewtopic.php?p=746093#p746093
I have now finished some of those translations:
Robert Bartholomew: Hysteriet omkring ‘Havana-syndromet’ og den store afledningsmanøvre (Skeptica.dk, Oct 31, 2021)
https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=10695
Jonathan Jarry: Havana-syndromet – et argument for at eliminere det usandsynlige (Skeptica.dk, Nov 1, 2021)
https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=10714
Robert Baloh: "Havana-syndromet svarer til mønstret for massepsykogen lidelse – men det betyder ikke, at symptomerne ikke er virkelige" (Skeptica.dk, Nov 6, 2021)
https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=10746
Omvæltning i Cuba planlægges (DCF, Nov 11, 2021)
https://www.cuba-venner.dk/omvaeltning-i-cuba-planlaegges/

And current events in Cuba make it worthwhile to return to Cuba issues that are not particularly Covid-19 related:
"protest plans fizzle in Havana"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13655479#post13655479

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pwm
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Re: Cuba

Post by pwm » Tue 16 Nov 2021, 12:52

Nemesis wrote:
Wed 20 Oct 2021, 18:45
Amnesty:
Amid reports of food scarcity, the authorities continued to repress all forms of dissent, including by imprisoning independent artists, journalists and members of the political opposition.
Det är legio. Knappt någon ids skriva om det längre, men Aljazzera hade en artikel i fredags. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/13/cuban-opposition-figure-arrested-ahead-of-banned-protest
Cuban dissident, journalist and human rights campaigner Guillermo Farinas has been arrested on Friday, his family said.

His arrest on Friday comes three days before opposition figures plan to hold a protest that has been banned by the government.

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Tue 16 Nov 2021, 21:46

From pwm's article:
“They told me that tomorrow a prosecutor will visit him to charge him, but we don’t know what for.”
So what was he arrested for? The article was from Nov 13, 2021.

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Tue 16 Nov 2021, 21:55

Danish translation of a German article about the protests that fizzled out:

SOCIALISTISKE CUBA
Kontraerne leverer ikke varen
Det lykkedes ikke cubanske systemmodstandere at lave nye »masseprotester«. Provokationen forsøges forlænget
Af Volker Hermsdorf
Fototekst: I stedet for fotos fra demonstrationer var der mandag kun billeder af rulleskøjteløbere i Havana

Mandag lykkedes det ikke de cubanske systemmodstandere og deres støtter at levere nye billeder af "masseprotester" mod regeringen i den socialistiske republik. "I dag kørte jeg rundt i Habana Vieja, Centro Habana og Vedado. Der var roligt over alt og ikke særligt meget politi. Kun i Calle Obispo så jeg en gruppe på ca. otte betjente, som sad og kedede sig på bænkene i en lille park." Det fortalte den tyske filmproducent Hans-Peter Weymar mandag aften (lokal tid) i en samtale med junge Welt.

I stedet for voldelige episoder som d. 11. juli blev der alle steder fejret, at skolerne igen er fyldt med 1,6 millioner børn, hvoraf de fleste allerede er vaccineret. Med åbningen for international turisme håber cubanerne desuden på en genoplivning af økonomien, efter at antallet af nye smittede er faldet til 23,1 per 100.000 som syvdagesgennemsnit - på trods af den skærpede amerikanske blokade. Selv USA's statslige propagandasender Radio and TV Martí og kontraportalen Diario de Cuba i Madrid kunne ikke præsentere nogen dokumentation af masseprotester. I stedet for viste de billeder af eksilcubanske kontraer, der marcherede i Miami og i andre dele af verden. Cubas udenrigsminister kritiserede netværk som Facebook og Twitter for, at de manipulerede deres algoritmer til at give indtryk af en alternativ virkelighed. Nogle tysksprogede medier offentliggjorde falske meddelelser fra systemmodstandere uden at faktachecke dem. Tagesschau påstod for eksempel, at "politibetjente i civil" havde forhindret Yunior Garcia, en af medstifterne af den amerikansk støttede kontra-platform "Archipiélago", i at forlade sit hjem. Men en video dokumenterer, at det var naboer uden for hans dør, der anklagede ham for at fungere som håndlanger for USA.

"Naturligvis er mennesker her på øen ikke glade for forsyningskrisen, for manglen på medikamenter, eller for at skulle stå i kø i én uendelighed. Men de fleste ved godt, hvad hovedårsagen er," fortæller Hans-Peter Weymar om sine aktuelle indtryk fra Havana. "Og man kan naturligvis også skændes om, hvorvidt det er rigtigt at forbyde demonstrationer. Men jeg kan godt forstå det, når man ved besked om alle de ting, der styres og finansieres udefra," siger filmproducenten. Med henvisning til den rolle, som USA og højreorienterede eksilcubanere spiller, erklærede udenrigsminister Rodriguez mandag: "Der er folk uden for Cuba, som havde andre forventninger, men de blev ikke opfyldt denne gang. Men de giver ikke op."

Næsten som en bekræftelse af disse ord offentliggjorde Diario de Cuba allerede tirsdag en annoncering fra "Archipiélago" om, at "borgernes march for forandring forlænges indtil den 27. november, eller indtil regimet holder op med at krænke borgerrettighederne." Mexicos præsident Andrés Manuel López Obrador fordømte den slags kampagner mod Cuba. "Der er ingen objektivitet, der er ingen balance. Og som jeg allerede har sagt ved andre lejligheder, så fortjener et land, som efter to århundreders politisk formynderi i Amerika har mod til at føle sig frit og uafhængigt, alene af den grund vores beundring og vores respekt. Det er enestående." Sådan blev den mexicanske stats- og regeringschef mandag citeret af den latinamerikanske nyhedskanal Telesur.

Washington og EU havde allerede på forhånd kritiseret den cubanske regering for at undertrykke protester og informationsfrihed. De begrundede blandt andet deres anklager med, at cubanske myndigheder om lørdagen havde frataget fem medarbejdere fra det spanske nyhedsbureau Efe deres akkreditering "for at efterprøve dem". Efter at to af de berørte havde fået deres tilladelse tilbage om søndagen, betegnede lederen af Efe, Gabriela Cañas, det som "utilstrækkeligt" og krævede, at alle fik deres presseakkrediteringskort tilbage. Nabila Massarali, talskvinde for EU-udenrigskommissær, Joseph Borrell, sagde, at man afventer en forklaring fra de cubanske myndigheder.

Original article:
https://www.jungewelt.de/artikel/414692.sozialistisches-kuba-contras-liefern-nicht.html (junge Welt, Nov 17, 2021)

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Wed 17 Nov 2021, 09:17

Twisting the Truth about Cuba!
Excellent YouTube video about the July protests in Cuba and media manipulation. Some of the examples are Orwellian!
We all saw the news coverage of the supposedly massive anti-government protests in Cuba during the week of July 11th, but if you were paying attention, you may have noticed something strange. In this episode, we'll analyze the protests and take a look at the US' long history of meddling in Cuba.
The Truth About The Cuba Protests (Second Thoughts, July 30, 2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIOw6fSOJI4
Some of the footage from the July demonstrations presented as protests against the Cuban government were actually manipulated footage from pro-government rallies with the text of the signs blurred out. In combination with footage from what appears to be Miami protests, it gives the impression that there were more anti-government protesters than was actually the case.

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Re: Cuba

Post by Vitnir » Wed 17 Nov 2021, 09:44

Vad är diskussionen kring egentligen?
Huruvida Kuba är en socialistisk diktatur eller inte?

Ja det är uppenbart en diktatur, oliktänkande fängslas i diktaturer för att avskräcka från protester.
There is no spoon.

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Wed 17 Nov 2021, 12:40

Olikttänkande fängslas inte i Cuba. If they are jailed, it is for actual crimes.
That is why it is a never a problem to find olikttänkanda Cubans willing to provide the Western media with the comments it so desires and hardly ever fact checks. People were arrested in July if they were rioting, not if they were merely protesting. So if that is your criterion, Cuba is not a dictatorship.

As for your question, "Vad är diskussionen kring egentligen?", I think that the whole point of posting stuff about Cuba entirely unrelated to the country's pandemic response was nothing but an attempt to distract from Cuba's successful vaccine rollout. You know, anything is useful as long as it serves to make Sweden look good.
That is why I made this thread for all things Cuban unrelated to the pandemic. Since Cuba's approach to that issue seems to be entirely evidensbaserad, I will continue to post news about aspect of Cuba that in the coronavirus thread.

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Re: Cuba

Post by pwm » Wed 17 Nov 2021, 13:31

Vitnir wrote:
Wed 17 Nov 2021, 09:44
Vad är diskussionen kring egentligen?
Nemisis verkar ha flytt tråden, men jag tror det handlar om hurivida Human Rights Watch ( https://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba ) och Amnesty International ( https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america-and-the-caribbean/cuba/report-cuba/ ) verklighetsuppfattning är distorderad, och danns bild är en mer korrekt bild av verkligheten i Kuba.

dann
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Re: Cuba

Post by dann » Wed 17 Nov 2021, 14:04

Let me give you a couple of clues about what to look out for when you read news about Cuba. The following quotations are from the Washington Post article, Cuba harasses, detains activists on eve of planned protest (WP, Nov 14, 2021)
Security forces surrounded the homes of Cuban activists on Sunday, the day before a planned march that will test the strength of the protest movement that erupted last summer when Cubans poured into the streets to demand more political freedoms on the communist-ruled island.
Is it actually true that "Security forces surrounded the homes of Cuban activists"? How do the journalists know? Were they there? Do we have footage of it happening? Or is it based merely on the claims of the activists? We know that some Cubans participated in protests in July, but did Cubans actually pour into the streets? Yes, some Cubans did indeed protest, but if you watch the YouTube video that I recommended above, you will find out how Western media pumped up the volume when they manipulated footage to make it seem as if the number of protesters was much higher that it actually was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIOw6fSOJI4
The best-known organizer of Monday’s protest, 39-year-old playwright Yunior García Aguilera, had announced he would march alone through Havana at 3 p.m. on Sunday, carrying a white rose in solidarity with Cubans who had been prevented from participating the following day. But hours before he set out, plainclothes police swarmed his block and besieged his building.
Did "plainclothes police" actually swarm his block and besiege his building? Did Yunior Garcia say so? Or do we have other eyewitness reports? Or even actual footage? Other news sources describe it as "a violent crowd," but is there any reason to assume that it's true?
In this case, we do have footage, but it does not really live up to the hype:
Standoff between Cuban government and activists begins ahead of march (CBS News, Nov 14, 2021)
Cuban state security surrounded the house of Yunior García, an artist who has emerged as one of the country's leading activists and organized a march planned for Monday.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/standoff-activists-cuban-activists-begins-ahead-march-rcna5554
Towards the end of the one-minute video clip there are a couple of guys who just might be plainclothes "state security", but also might just be members of the neighborhood taking it upon themselves that make sure that nobody starts a riot against Yunior Garcia. The people at the beginning of the clip look like an ordinary crowd of people gathering to see what's going on and dancing a little merengue on the occasion. Is that supposed to be the "violent crowd"? I don't see any sign of violence, and I don't think that it is because the Western media wasn't busy trying to find it. (And by the way, the young people camping out on a public square (Parque Central) in the middle of the clip are government supporters protesting against the protesters and making sure that nobody desecrates the statue of Cuban national hero José Martí.)

The WP article continues:
He (Yunior Garcia) called on people around the nation to clap at 3 p.m. to show their “thirst for freedom,” but there did not appear to be a widespread response.
This seems to be true: Reuters appears to have called all the Cubans they could think of. And all over the island, nobody appears to have heard anything:
Cuban Americans rally in Miami while protest plans fizzle in Havana (SwissInfo.ch, Nov 15, 2021)
Later in the evening, dissidents had called on supporters to bang pots from their homes in a show of solidarity for government critics, but several Reuters witnesses in Havana, the country's largest city, heard no pot-banging in their neighborhoods.
Residents contacted by Reuters in eastern Granma and Santiago de Cuba provinces, as well as San Antonio de los Banos, in Artemisa province where the July protests began, also reported no incidents on Sunday and no pot-banging.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/cuban-americans-rally-in-miami-while-protest-plans-fizzle-in-havana/47110994
No clapping, no pot banging. But in the Western world, we all know why, don't we? The terrified Cubans must have huddled together all over the island, afraid to make the slightest noise that might make the state security think that they sympathize with their real hero, Yunior Garcia, and not José Martí, whom they all secretly despise. That is how we want it to be, so that is how it has to be.

Now, I know that it is hard to believe that this is not the case, but you have all had the experience of media reports during the pandemic, and the media really isn't to be trusted on many things. Sometimes it is almost a full-time job to be able to distinguish between its many reports and reality. The bias against Cuba is more obvious than in most other cases, and yet everybody tends to fall for it.
I myself might still believe the media reports about Cuba and Cubans if I had never been there and talked to them. And read the books, seen the documentaries. I can recommend the book What Lies across the Water by Canadian journalist Stephen Kimber: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/18216034-what-lies-across-the-water
Before the pandemic, a Canadian-Cuban cooperation was working on turning it into a TV series, but I don't know if Covid put a stop to it for good. I hope not.

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