Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

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dann
Posts:2858
Joined:Sun 24 May 2020, 17:18
Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Sun 26 Jun 2022, 08:56

Nemesis wrote:
Sat 22 May 2021, 18:33
Sverige brukar beskrivas, iaf inrikes, som ett land den nationalismen är svag, bortsett från vid sportevenemang. Stämmer verkligen detta? Pandemin visar snarare att Sverige är ett synnerligen nationalistiskt land.
This guy has it in for Sweden after recent events:
Chris Turnbull (June 26, 2022)
Sweden has officially jumped the shark with this one: the idiots now ask: why does everyone have a strange new coughing disease? a Swedish professor is baffled: 'it's hard to say' they declare — what a bunch of fucking idiots that country has.
(...)
Imagine Sweden in the olympics in 10 years time: never mind running the hundred meter, will those morons have single person who can even walk it without passing out?
'and they're off!' apart from Sweden who has collapsed on the floor pissing themselves...what a sad, sad sight...ooh..and now they're having a heart attack — Swedish superiority for you: they're as good as Abba!
https://twitter.com/EnemyInAState/status/1540858090186326016
For those of you who are not familiar with the expression 'jumping the shark', it's impossible to guess the meaning:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

On the other hand, heart attacks seem to be the way to garner sympathy. It worked for Eriksen: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/18105555/christian-eriksen-returns-cardiac-arrest-denmark/

And in Austria:
Experte rätselt: Mysteriöse Hustenkrankheit hält Schweden in Atem (Kronenzeitung.at, June 24, 2022)
https://www.krone.at/2742995

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Johannes
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Johannes » Mon 27 Jun 2022, 14:18

Ändå rätt skönt att dann tydligt kommer ut med sin agenda: han är helt enkelt en simpel Sverigehatare som är fullständigt ointresserad av någonting som har med sanningen att göra utan bara springer ärenden som nyttig idiot åt främmande makt. Om det nu är Kuba eller Putin.

Kanske dags för Nemesis att ta sin hand från denne mörkerman?

Nemesis
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Mon 27 Jun 2022, 20:49

Hur kommer du fram till den slutsatsen? Dann har ju även kritiserat den danska pandemihanteringen. Hur stor del av din försvar av Sveriges pandemihantering skulle du säga bottnar i någon form av nationalism, patriotism, och/eller nationell stolthet? Tror du att du skulle ha försvarat den svenska pandemihanteringen om du var norrman?

På vilket sätt har jag "min hand" över Dann? Jag har ingen makt på detta forum överhuvudtaget.

Jag såg på Aftonbladet TV där de intervjuade folk på gatan i New York efter att HD där rivit upp aborträtten. En person uttryckte då att "I am extremely disappointed in our country". Det är en fullt rimlig reaktion, och att känna likadant över Sveriges pandemihantering är också en fullt rimlig reaktion.

Jag är enig med Dann om det mesta när det gäller pandemin. Till skillnad från Dann så tror jag dock inte att viruset går att utrota, utan att det kommer att bli endemiskt (vilket majoriteten av experterna tror: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 ). Jag är oenig med Dann när det gäller Kuba, och baserat på detta, antagligen även oense med honom när det gäller ekonomi och andra relaterade frågor (kanske rentav NATO).

Vem vet, om du när det kommer till Covid höll dig till mainstream-vetenskap istället för att hålla ett gäng gamla gubbar med GBD-sympatier om ryggen så kanske vi hade varit ense om det mesta här i i världen?
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 07:06

Viruset går att utrota, definitely, even in its recent and extremely contagious form, BA.5. It has been shown again and again, most recently in Shanghai, but it requires a huge effort and is no doubt very expensive. But there is no real will to do so in most (all?) of the Western world.
Notice this from your Nature article:
In January, Nature asked more than 100 immunologists, infectious-disease researchers and virologists working on the coronavirus whether it could be eradicated. Almost 90% of respondents think that the coronavirus will become endemic
I also think that the virus will become endemic, but not because it can't be eradicated. Notice also that the article is from Feb 2021, before BA.5, before Omicron and even before Delta!
That SARS-CoV-2 will not be eradicated in no way means that it cannot be eradicated. It means that politicians and the captains of industry don't want to use the resources needed to eradicate it because they think it's cheaper to make people believe that they can 'learn to live with the virus'. Which, by the way, is how we got to Delta, Omicron and BA.5.

And, yes, we disagree about Cuba, economy (I imagine), NATO (I imagine), and nuclear power.
As far as Cuba is concerned, I don't blame people in Western countries for having the opinions about the country that they do. They believe what they have been told by the media, fairly consistently. So did I before I got to know and read up on it. However, I do blame people who pretend to know about Cuba based merely on the impression they got from the Western media, which is as reliable in its reporting about Cuba as the Swedish media has been in its reporting about the pandemic.

In the USA, you can make a living making up lies about Cuba. And you can make an even better living by making up lies about Cuba while living in Cuba!
I wrote a short post about our so-called representative democracy with a few quotes from the reality of this kind of regime about how it separates people from the power to make decisions: https://forum.vof.se/viewtopic.php?p=746658#p746658
And yesterday, in the context of a discussion about Dawkins turning racist and Danish Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons, I wrote an even shorter post about the theme of rights: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13842312#post13842312

You know as well as I do that we had no say whatsoever in the decisions made about the pandemic response of our respective countries, for instance.
In Cuba, they have what they themselves call participatory democracy, which may be the main reason why Cubans trust its vaccines and don't imagine that the government or health authorities fill them with mind-control chips:
Cuba has opted for a system which seeks to keep people as involved as possible with the tasks of finding solutions, balancing need, allocating scarce resources and accommodating difference. Cuba is a country in constant negotiation with itself and its systems of participation facilitate those negotiations.
https://cuba-solidarity.org.uk/cubasi/article/187/all-in-this-together-cubarsquos-participatory-democracy
I am not asking you to believe me. I am asking you to read up on this before you make up your mind about what Cuba is. What it says on some Democracy Watch site (whatever) really isn't the same thing as making an effort to actually find out. The pandemic should have taught you that, too.

As a skeptic, I love the way that Cuban authorities inform the population and teach young people about social media and the way to deal with the manipulation and lies running rampant there. They have a TV show, Con Filo, dedicated to this, and you can bet your sweet *** that you will never stumble onto this on YouTube or Google, unless you search for it specifically, but it is there nevertheless: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Pqox7d7Q2LpAagKq7dM2g (English subtitles optional)

By the way, Cuba really has to put in a tremendous effort to try to cleanse 'Cuba-bilden' from the worst lies and defamation; currently, for instance, that Cubans are forced to get vaccinated. Much like Shanghai was much more interesting during the lockdown than it is now, it just can't be allowed to be true that there is a country where the whole population lines up willingly and eagerly to get the jabs. If they are better than us in this respect, it must be because they people were forced at gunpoint to get vaccinated. (By the way, I think this is a major difference between Cuba and China: The Chinese haven't been very eager to get immunized.)
But on the other hand, those lies (much like the lies about American diplomats in Havana being attacked with microwave weapons) make the majority of Cubans realize the absurdity of the propaganda aimed at the country.

This is also the reason why I do my utmost to inform about Cuba, and in particular about Cuba's pandemic response, even though I am very much aware that this makes me seem unreliable in the eyes of some people. You know that I did the same thing when New Zealand was still doing a great job of it, and I would have continued to do so if its strategy hadn't changed.
I just don't give a **** If people can't handle the truth. So be it.

dann
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Joined:Sun 24 May 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 14:15

I need to add this about the feasibility of ZeroCovid: Cuba brought the pandemic down to the size of zero Covid deaths the most recent month with a combination of vaccines, face masks, TTI and lockdowns, but as far as I know, there have been no lockdowns this year.

I have mentioned these measures before, but what I didn't point out was that Cuba's face masks weren't FFP2/N95. They often weren't even surgical masks, the not very effective ones that Danes were asked to use when they became available. In the vast majority of cases, Cuba's face masks were homemade cloth masks, the ones that don't really seem to do the trick if you are trying to protect yourself, but probably offer enough protection from the virus shed by asymptomatic carriers.
FACE MASKS, THE CUBAN WAY (Cubania Travel, March 25, 2020)
A photo of the team at El Cafe is accompanied by “#It’s better to be careful”, a friendly push from the cooler echelons of Old Havana society to take precautions. Their efforts, along with the government’s, are paying off: face masks are now everywhere in Havana, from the standard white medical kind to loud, bright homemade efforts more in line with the colour and noise of the Caribbean island.
https://cubaniatravel.com/stories/face-masks-the-cuban-way/
This was from the beginning of the pandemic, but the picture still remained the same even two years later. Cuba didn't have access to, i.e. probably couldn't afford, the more expensive FFP2/N96 masks:
https://en.granma.cu/cuba/2022-05-19/families-plural

Nemesis
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 20:58

dann wrote:
Wed 29 Jun 2022, 07:06
Viruset går att utrota, definitely, even in its recent and extremely contagious form, BA.5. It has been shown again and again, most recently in Shanghai, but it requires a huge effort and is no doubt very expensive. But there is no real will to do so in most (all?) of the Western world.
Notice this from your Nature article:
In January, Nature asked more than 100 immunologists, infectious-disease researchers and virologists working on the coronavirus whether it could be eradicated. Almost 90% of respondents think that the coronavirus will become endemic
I also think that the virus will become endemic, but not because it can't be eradicated. Notice also that the article is from Feb 2021, before BA.5, before Omicron and even before Delta!
That SARS-CoV-2 will not be eradicated in no way means that it cannot be eradicated. It means that politicians and the captains of industry don't want to use the resources needed to eradicate it because they think it's cheaper to make people believe that they can 'learn to live with the virus'. Which, by the way, is how we got to Delta, Omicron and BA.5.
Detta håller jag helt med om. Om alla länder från början hade haft pandemihantering som Japan, Nya Zeeland, etc, så hade vi nog kunna få bort viruset från människor (att få bort det från andra djur är svårare). Antagligen hade vi då heller aldrig fått Alfa, Delta, Omikron, osv. Jämför med SARS-CoV-1, som eliminerades från människor, men som finns kvar bland andra djur.

Artikeln är äldre än Omikron, men inte äldre än Delta. Delta-varianten upptäcktes i Indien 5 oktober 2020.
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Sun 03 Jul 2022, 20:13

Conan ze Bavarian (July 3, 2022)
First rule of sverigebilden-club is: Don't talk about anything that could be negative for sverigebilden-club.
https://twitter.com/ConanZeBavarian/status/1543672459999731713

Nemesis
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Thu 21 Jul 2022, 20:40

Svenska taktiken: Mörkar resultatet av covidtestet

Jonna Andersson har milda sjukdomssymptom men landslaget vill av taktiska skäl inte ge några detaljer om covidstatus.

– Jonna Andersson har testats men vi väljer att inte berätta om hon har testat positivt eller inte, säger presschefen Fredrik Madestam enligt SVT Sport.

Madestam menar att det skulle riskera att ge Belgien fördelar i EM-kvartsfinalen.

Tidigare är det bekräftat att Hanna Glas och Emma Kullberg har drabbats av covid-19. Deras symptom beskrivs som ”mycket milda”.

https://omni.se/svenska-taktiken-morkar-resultatet-av-covidtestet/a/z7v0xq
...
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Fri 22 Jul 2022, 09:13

The Swedish number of new confirmed (!) infections has more than quadrupled since late May and are much higher than at the same point in July 2021 when testing hadn't yet been reduced to a bare minimum, i.e. very sick seniors and professional athletes, apparently.
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=~SWE

Sweden appears to have stopped reporting the number of patients hospitalized with Covid-19 in early March:
Number of COVID-19 patients in hospital
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-hospital?country=~SWE
Sweden also doesn't report the number of new hospitalizations to Our World in Data. I don't know if it ever did.

Nemesis
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 15:36

dann wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 09:13
The Swedish number of new confirmed (!) infections has more than quadrupled since late May and are much higher than at the same point in July 2021 when testing hadn't yet been reduced to a bare minimum, i.e. very sick seniors and professional athletes, apparently.
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=~SWE
Uppmärksamt av dig att notera detta. Det ser verkligen inte bra ut inför hösten och vintern.
dann wrote:
Fri 22 Jul 2022, 09:13
Sweden appears to have stopped reporting the number of patients hospitalized with Covid-19 in early March:
Number of COVID-19 patients in hospital
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-hospital?country=~SWE
Sweden also doesn't report the number of new hospitalizations to Our World in Data. I don't know if it ever did.
Intressant. Jag som tycker mig minnas att försvararna av Sveriges pandemihantering hävdat att Sverige för statistik mycket bättre än alla andra länder, och att det är därför som våra siffror ser ut som de gör.
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 16:35

It is possible that they have just stopped reporting the numbers to Our World in Data. I don't know.

ETA: The current death toll appears to be at least three times higher than in 2021:
2022
På grund av fördröjningen i rapporteringen fokuserar analyserna avseende avlidna bekräftade fall i veckorapporten främst på data fram till för två veckor sedan. Hittills har 55 bekräftade fall rapporterats avlidna under vecka 27. Föregående tre veckor (vecka 24–26) var medeltalet 33 dödsfall per vecka.
https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/folkhalsorapportering-statistik/statistik-a-o/sjukdomsstatistik/covid-19-veckorapporter/senaste-covidrapporten/
2021
På grund av fördröjning i rapporteringen av avlidna bekräftade fall gäller analyserna i veckorapporten data fram till för två veckor sedan. För vecka 27 har hittills 3 avlidna bekräftade fall rapporterats, vilket är färre än antalet avlidna per vecka under vecka 24–26 (i medeltal 11 dödsfall rapporterade per vecka).
https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/globalassets/statistik-uppfoljning/smittsamma-sjukdomar/veckorapporter-covid-19/2021/covid-19-veckorapport-2021-vecka-29-final.pdf

Nemesis
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 20:07

OWiD är väl inget man specifikt rapporterar in till? OWiD hämtar väl endast den officiella statistik som världens länders myndigheter tillhandahåller? Om ett lands myndigheter inte offentliggör viss statistik, t ex hur många sjuka i Covid som får vård på sjukhus, så finns det inget för OWiD att inhämta.
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

dann
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Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by dann » Tue 02 Aug 2022, 12:21

I don't know how it works. It would obviously be more convenient for the website if the numbers were updated by somebody local and thus familiar with the local health authorities' way of reporting them.

Our World in Data's graph of Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths in Sweden.
For July 2022: July 1: 19,124, July 31: 19,358 = 234.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2022-07-01..2022-07-31&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=~SWE
And for July 2021: July 1: 14,630, July 31: 14,655 = 25.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2021-07-01..2021-08-01&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_cases&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=~SWE
The numbers appear to get updated only once a week, so the actual number of Covid-19 deaths in July 2022 may be higher than 234. I don't know if Sweden's delayed reporting of Covid-19 deaths means that July's numbers may increase for the next couple of weeks.

Nemesis
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Location:Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Post by Nemesis » Tue 02 Aug 2022, 13:44

Det stämmer att Sverige uppdaterar antalet Covid-döda endast en gång per vecka, på torsdagar tror jag det är. Brukar synas på OWiD på fredagar.
"If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed." - Marcus Aurelius

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