Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Diskutera sociologi, historia, religionsvetenskap, ekonomi, språk, statsvetenskap o.s.v. ur ett vetenskapligt perspektiv.
dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » sön 14 feb 2021, 14:41

Steven P. Novella and Harriett Hall have been active skeptics for many, many years.

But back to bilden av Sverige:
I guess this is the attitude that is required if you want to avoid repercussions for ruing Sweden's image:
Rush hour in Stockholm today. Few masks. The claims of a Swedish lockdown are greatly exaggerated.
Sebastian Rushworth on Twitter (Jan. 28, 2021)

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av Nemesis » sön 14 feb 2021, 18:08

Sebastian Rushworth är Covid-förnekare och konspirationsteoretiker. Jag skulle inte lägga någon större vikt vid vad han skriver.

Lite exempel på vad han har skrivit:
Why did the world react so hysterically to covid?

I think most governments have dug themselves in to a hole in relation to covid. They’ve portrayed it as for more deadly and dangerous than it is. They know this. But to admit the error now is impossible. Partly, that is because lockdown has resulted in so much suffering that it would be suicidal to say that it was all for nothing. Partly it is because the mass media and general public are so convinced of the seriousness of the disease, that any government that argued the contrary would be labeled as irresponsible and deranged.

So, the only way out of the hole is with a magic bullet. And that magic bullet is the vaccine. It doesn’t matter whether the vaccine has any effect whatsoever on overall mortality, or whether it protects the old and infirm, who are at most risk of severe disease, or prevents spread of infection. The only thing that matters is getting out of the hole as quickly as possible, without admitting ever having done anything wrong.
A very odd year

From my perspective, based on my experience in the hospital, and what was being shown in the official statistics and scientific studies, it was clear that covid was no worse than a bad flu, of the kind seen several times per century.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » sön 14 feb 2021, 19:19

I became aware of Rushworth this summer when one of the covidiots, Gavin, in ISF's thread about the Swedish strategy linked to his article about Stockholm having achieved herd immunity. At one point, Gavin also came up with a graph showing that Sweden had only registered one death the previous week. He didn't appear to be aware of FoHM's delay in the registration of Covid deaths and the difference between registered and actual deaths. I no longer remember who attempted the same trick in the VoF thread about evidensbaserade åtgärder.
At least, Rushworth now understands that this idea was entirely false:
There is so much that is interesting about this graph. Like I said, it begins in week 28, in other words in early July, which is around the time the first Swedish covid wave was bottoming out. At the time, I personally thought this was due to enough of the population having developed immunity to covid, but we now know that was wrong. Rather, it was due to seasonality – in other words, summer caused covid to disappear.
Here’s a graph they don’t want you to see (Jan. 25, 2021)
A very bold title, considering all the data that FoHM is hiding!

Sebastian Rushworth's article about Stockholm's alleged herd immunity now begins with an opening disclaimer, which I don' remember reading this summer, but I could be wrong. August 2020 is a l-o-n-g time ago measured in corona months! :)
Ok, I want to preface this article by stating that it is entirely anecdotal and based on my experience working as a doctor in the emergency room of one of the big hospitals in Stockholm, Sweden, and of living as a citizen in Sweden.
His words from your quotation are really telling. With a few changes, they perfectly describe the thinking of Covid-19 deniers:
They’ve portrayed it as far more less deadly and dangerous than it is. They know this. But to admit the error now is impossible. Partly, that is because lockdown the herd-immunity-by-infection strategy has resulted in so much suffering that it would be suicidal to say that it was all for nothing.
Anyway, Rushworth now seems to prefer to write about diets instead of pandemics. Maybe he hopes to follow in the footsteps of The Fat Emperor.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » mån 15 feb 2021, 07:42

Det enda som är skadligt för Sverigebilden är att den där facebookgruppen inte har fler än 200 medlemmar.Eric Hammarstrand retweets Emanuel Lindgren (Feb. 15, 2021)
Great thread from Eric Hammarstrand about what it's like to be one of Sweden's expendables:
1. Staying isolated during the pandemic, seeing my disabled brothers and sisters dying in vast numbers and then being branded a "threat to democracy" seeking to "damage Sweden's interests" – for having the audacity to criticize our lax measures.
Eric Hammarstrand on Twitter (Feb. 14, 2021)
On ISF.


dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » fre 19 feb 2021, 15:03

Keith Begg (MEWAS, MediaWatchSweden) has left Sweden:
I have arrived in Ireland in one piece. After only two hours the overwhelming feeling of relief washes over me. Everyone wears masks and you need to use a tracker locator app. There is a feeling of solidarity and unity, people working together for the common good.
(...)
Sweden is no longer a democracy. It is run by a system based on cronyism, hubris, arrogance and exceptionalism. Many of us have had to leave because the simple fact is we don't feel safe there any longer. Critics of the strategy of the government and the criminal negligence of @Folkhalsomynd are smeared, vilified, and threatened in exactly the same way as is done in authoritarian states. The Swedish state goes after critics in totalitarianism 101 to deflect their criminal mistakes onto ordinary people who are not afraid to challenge them.
MEWAS (Keith Begg) on Twitter (Feb. 19, 2021)
His Twitter thread from Ireland is longer than this.

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av Nemesis » fre 19 feb 2021, 21:17

dann skrev:
sön 14 feb 2021, 14:41
Steven P. Novella and Harriett Hall have been active skeptics for many, many years.
Absolut. Stabila skeptiker. Gör definitivt inte avkall på vetenskaplighet av nationalistiska eller andra ideologiska skäl.
dann skrev:
sön 14 feb 2021, 19:19
Anyway, Rushworth now seems to prefer to write about diets instead of pandemics. Maybe he hopes to follow in the footsteps of The Fat Emperor.
Det verkar som det. Fast ser ingen direkt anledning att läsa vad en crackpot tycker om mat och näringslära. Science-Based Medicine levererar i vanlig ordning. Som vi vet, en betydligt mer pålitlig källa. :)
dann skrev:
mån 15 feb 2021, 07:42
Det enda som är skadligt för Sverigebilden är att den där facebookgruppen inte har fler än 200 medlemmar.Eric Hammarstrand retweets Emanuel Lindgren (Feb. 15, 2021)
Haha, helt sant.
dann skrev:
fre 19 feb 2021, 15:03
Keith Begg (MEWAS, MediaWatchSweden) has left Sweden:
I have arrived in Ireland in one piece. After only two hours the overwhelming feeling of relief washes over me. Everyone wears masks and you need to use a tracker locator app. There is a feeling of solidarity and unity, people working together for the common good.
(...)
Sweden is no longer a democracy. It is run by a system based on cronyism, hubris, arrogance and exceptionalism. Many of us have had to leave because the simple fact is we don't feel safe there any longer. Critics of the strategy of the government and the criminal negligence of @Folkhalsomynd are smeared, vilified, and threatened in exactly the same way as is done in authoritarian states. The Swedish state goes after critics in totalitarianism 101 to deflect their criminal mistakes onto ordinary people who are not afraid to challenge them.
MEWAS (Keith Begg) on Twitter (Feb. 19, 2021)
His Twitter thread from Ireland is longer than this.
Blir tveksam till den markerade texten. Enligt Democracy Index så är Sverige världens tredje mest demokratiska land. Och nej, Sverige är ingen perfekt demokrati. Det borde innebära att det demokratiska problemen i princip alla andra länder borde vara likvärdiga eller större än våra. Fast jag är såklart öppen till att jag missat eller missbedömt något här.

Samtidigt så tycker jag att myndigheter har hanterat pandemin bedrövligt och ovetenskapligt, och media har verkligen brustit i granskningen av detta (man verkar mer intresserad av att granska kritikerna). De flesta i Sverige skulle jag tro i princip endast läser och lyssnar på svensk media, och många som jag träffat på är otroligt dåligt informerade (anekdoter, jag vet) om Covid. Folk vet att Norge har lägre dödstal än Sverige, men inte hur mycket lägre. Långtidscovid och att det inte är helt ovanligt känner de flesta inte till. Nyligen hörde jag några kollegor prata om att Norge har fått en ökad smittspridning, de hade tydligen fått intrycket att de har mer smittspridning där än i Sverige. Att Jonas Ludvigsson skrivit på Great Barrington Declaration och vad den innebär nämns knappt (eller alls?) i svensk media (tysk media tar dock upp det). Och såklart det vanliga, varav vi tyvärr ser en del här på forumet, som att munskydd inte hjälper, att Sveriges pandemihantering bygger på vetenskap och resten av världens hantering bygger på populism, barn smittar inte, etc. Såklart är det negativt för en demokrati om folk är dåligt informerade, men bortsett från just Covid är jag inte säker på att situationen är signifikant bättre någon annanstans. Men som alltid är jag öppen för att jag har fel.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av Nemesis » tor 25 feb 2021, 21:15

Limerick man flees Sweden over criticism of his Covid-19 campaign

A Limerick man has fled his adopted home of Sweden, fearing for his safety, after national public radio suggested an online group he moderated, which was critical of Sweden’s Covid-19 strategy, was a national security threat.

Keith Begg set up a private Facebook group with the aim of “exposing the failed Swedish Covid-19 strategy”.

But a recent national Swedish radio report portrayed his online activities as “attempting to influence Swedish interests abroad”, triggering a wave of abuse and threats. After nearly eight years in the country, the 46-year-old dual citizen of Sweden and Ireland decided to return to Limerick.

“I received a letter in my postbox referring to me as a traitor, I got hate speech . . . calling me a dirty foreigner,” he says. “It was getting so vitriolic, I was worried about a brick through the window and the safety of myself, my husband and our two cats.”

...

He has no plans to return to Sweden which, in the middle of a pandemic, he says is more concerned with its public image abroad than public health at home.

“Sweden has put itself on such a pedestal of exceptionalist arrogance,” he said. “There’s a very narrow corridor of opinion and, if you fall outside of that, you’re a troublemaker or radical. I’m expecting them next to suggest I’m aligned with the IRA.”
Any luster I ever saw on Sweeden or the Netherlands has been made pewter by their covid response. The "well some will have to die" nonchallant response is not something I can wrap my head around when the option to mitigate is as simple as a cloth mask. My goodness

https://twitter.com/hpcprogrammer/statu ... 5192701961
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » lör 27 feb 2021, 12:30

”Sverige delar samma mål som alla andra länder. Vi arbetar med samma utmaningar och använder liknande verktyg som de flesta andra länder”, säger Linde, enligt den transkribering av talet som Aftonbladet kommit över.
Orden samma och liknande är markerade i fetstil.
Dokument avslöjar: Så försöker regeringen rädda Sverigebilden (Aftonbladet.se, June 2, 2020)

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » lör 27 feb 2021, 12:33

Nemesis skrev:
tor 25 feb 2021, 21:15
A Limerick man has ...
There once was a man from ... :smile2:

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » sön 28 feb 2021, 13:18

Fagdirektøren i norske FHI mottok både hatmeldinger og trusler fra svensker i etterkant av disputten med Giesecke og Tegnell.
«Jeg har blitt intervjuet av flere svenske medier og alle stiller spørsmål som støtter Sveriges strategi. Det virker som at man skal støtte sin egen regjering og strategi. Men Sverige går jo mot hele verden,» sa Forland til Aftenposten i mai.
Når forskning.no nå snakker med Forland så bekrefter han truslene han har mottatt fra Sverige. De har kommet på e-post, telefon og via Facebook.
Han mener, og har ment hele tiden, at årsaken til at Sverige ble så hardt rammet av koronaviruset er at det tok for lang tid før de slo til med harde tiltak.
– Jeg opplevde også at i starten var det ingen debatt i Sverige om strategien, sier han til forskning.no.
– Det ble oppfattet som illojalt å ikke være lojale. Også i mediene. Jeg opplevde at mediene i Sverige var ute etter å finne argumenter som støttet den svenske strategien. De stilte meg spørsmål som skulle bekrefte at svenskene hadde rett og vi i Norge tok feil.
– Det virket som om alle trodde dette i Sverige. Så kom det et brekkpunkt på et eller annet tidspunkt.
Hvorfor gikk det så galt i Sverige? (Forskning.no, Feb. 27, 2021)

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » mån 01 mar 2021, 09:30

My most recent contribution to Sweden's international image. I used to enjoy Vetenskapens värld, and I guess I will still be able to do so in the future, but their latest program is grotesque: Coronakampens pris.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » mån 01 mar 2021, 23:06

Nemesis skrev:
fre 19 feb 2021, 21:17
dann skrev:
fre 19 feb 2021, 15:03
Keith Begg (MEWAS, MediaWatchSweden) has left Sweden:
I have arrived in Ireland in one piece. After only two hours the overwhelming feeling of relief washes over me. Everyone wears masks and you need to use a tracker locator app. There is a feeling of solidarity and unity, people working together for the common good.
(...)
Sweden is no longer a democracy. It is run by a system based on cronyism, hubris, arrogance and exceptionalism. Many of us have had to leave because the simple fact is we don't feel safe there any longer. Critics of the strategy of the government and the criminal negligence of @Folkhalsomynd are smeared, vilified, and threatened in exactly the same way as is done in authoritarian states. The Swedish state goes after critics in totalitarianism 101 to deflect their criminal mistakes onto ordinary people who are not afraid to challenge them.
MEWAS (Keith Begg) on Twitter (Feb. 19, 2021)
His Twitter thread from Ireland is longer than this.
Blir tveksam till den markerade texten. Enligt Democracy Index så är Sverige världens tredje mest demokratiska land. Och nej, Sverige är ingen perfekt demokrati. Det borde innebära att det demokratiska problemen i princip alla andra länder borde vara likvärdiga eller större än våra. Fast jag är såklart öppen till att jag missat eller missbedömt något här.

Samtidigt så tycker jag att myndigheter har hanterat pandemin bedrövligt och ovetenskapligt, och media har verkligen brustit i granskningen av detta (man verkar mer intresserad av att granska kritikerna). De flesta i Sverige skulle jag tro i princip endast läser och lyssnar på svensk media, och många som jag träffat på är otroligt dåligt informerade (anekdoter, jag vet) om Covid. Folk vet att Norge har lägre dödstal än Sverige, men inte hur mycket lägre. Långtidscovid och att det inte är helt ovanligt känner de flesta inte till. Nyligen hörde jag några kollegor prata om att Norge har fått en ökad smittspridning, de hade tydligen fått intrycket att de har mer smittspridning där än i Sverige. Att Jonas Ludvigsson skrivit på Great Barrington Declaration och vad den innebär nämns knappt (eller alls?) i svensk media (tysk media tar dock upp det). Och såklart det vanliga, varav vi tyvärr ser en del här på forumet, som att munskydd inte hjälper, att Sveriges pandemihantering bygger på vetenskap och resten av världens hantering bygger på populism, barn smittar inte, etc. Såklart är det negativt för en demokrati om folk är dåligt informerade, men bortsett från just Covid är jag inte säker på att situationen är signifikant bättre någon annanstans. Men som alltid är jag öppen för att jag har fel.
Keith Begg makes the mistake of confusing democracy with his (and most other people's) ideal of democracy. When Sweden doesn't live up to his ideal, he chooses to stick to his ideal instead of noticing his mistake. He and you seem to share this ideal when you say that Sweden is "världens tredje mest demokratiska land."

The ideology is that Sweden isn't simply the kind of country where people, voters, get to hand over power over themselves to politicians in a process that takes place every four years or so when people have the opportunity to vote for the politicians that they prefer to govern them. They can by no means be sure that the politicians they elect will be the ones that rule them for the next couple of years. That depends on majorities and negations among the elected politicians. But even if their own favourite politician becomes president or PM, they can't be sure which policies will be implemented by her or him. They may have promised people all kinds of things, but usually they just advertise with vague slogans or moral values. In fact, once instated in office, a president or a PM may do the exact opposite of what the voters expected them to do, since they are not bound by their promises to voters, only by their own conscience. The constitution usually says so explicitly, and a Danish PM once (famously) declared: "Man har et standpunkt til man tager et nyt." (Wikipedia)
As a voter, there is really nothing you can do other than wait till the next election and vote again, but the premise remains the same: Politicians aren't bound by their promises to the voters. Voting for them sets them free from all obligations to the people who voted for them.

Keith Begg thinks that real democracies don't have "cronyism, hubris, arrogance and exceptionalism," that they should be trying to make people "feel safe," that critics of the policies aren't "smeared, vilified, and threatened," and that democratic leaders don't "deflect their criminal mistakes onto ordinary people."
He is wrong, obviously.

I think you make the same mistake when you think that "Såklart är det negativt för en demokrati om folk är dåligt informerade." It is pretty obvious by now what happens when politicians and alleged scientific experts lie about a virus in the middle of a pandemic: People get sick and die. In fact, the number of lies people believe in seems to be proportional to the number of infections and deaths.

But one thing doesn't seem to happen: It doesn't seem to harm democracy at all that people get sick and die, and the only thing that worries the democratically elected leaders and their appointed 'experts' is that their lies are exposed, which is why they accuse the critics of those lies of being traitors to the country as well as traitors to democracy.

I think it speaks volumes of the kind of governance we call democracy that its subjects think that all its unpleasant aspects are undemocratic instead of realizing that they are democracy's features:
"But that's undemocratic!"
(RuthlessCriticism)

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » tor 04 mar 2021, 14:41

Correction:
dann skrev:
mån 01 mar 2021, 23:06
The ideology is that Sweden isn't simply the kind of country where people, voters, get to hand over power over themselves to politicians in a process that takes place every four years or so when people have the opportunity to vote for the politicians that they prefer to govern them. They can by no means be sure that the politicians they elect will be the ones that rule them for the next couple of years. That depends on majorities and negations among the elected politicians.
negations should have been negotiations.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: Hur kommer bilden av Sverige i världen att se ut efter Covid?

Inlägg av dann » fre 05 mar 2021, 10:53

Like Keith Begg, Andreia Rodrigues is now leaving Sweden:
Koronaktivister forlater Sverige: – Vi kommer aldri tilbake (NRK.no, March 5, 2021)

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